Should We Stay Or Should We Go

[BuddieinEK]

Because you have two different situations England makes up over 80% of the UK's population thus it can never be a partnership of equals. The EU is a conglomerate of 28 nations and while power within the organization will vary according to a country's size and economic strength you will never have the same degree of domination by a single nation.

We don't have a federal UK and to the best of my knowledge it's not on the political agenda - Scotland has a parliament, Wales & NI have assemblies all three have different degrees of autonomy. London has a mayoral system with more powers than the rest of English local government, I'm not exactly sure what is envisaged for the other English cities which are going to be devolved mayoral powers but the whole situation is a mess - and one that we're better out of .

The EU is a federal system with defined areas of responsibility for the EU parliament and the individual nations. As far as I can see any special status the UK has within the EU is largely cosmetic and will continue to be so.

So would a campaign for a more federal system with devolved power throughout the UK not be a good thing then?

If it "works" for Europe, then why not the UK?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

So a more federal system within a unity of nations is a good thing on one hand and a bad thing on the other?

Why can a more federal system not work for both?

A federal UK isn't on offer.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

So would a campaign for a more federal system with devolved power throughout the UK not be a good thing then?

If it "works" for Europe, then why not the UK?

I think it would be a definite improvement on what we currently have. Neither of the two main Westminster parties are supportive of it though, so it ain't gonna happen.

They reckon the mother of parliaments works.

[Bud the Baker]

So would a campaign for a more federal system with devolved power throughout the UK not be a good thing then?

It probably would be but I'd rather have independence.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Bud the Baker

[BuddieinEK]

A federal UK isn't on offer.

Neither is independence but it didn't stop a concerted campaign.

If the majority agree that a federal system in the UK with increased local autonomy would work, who is to say it cannot be campaigned for?

Are politicions not elected on the will of the majority?

[Reynard]

Interesting that Labour (of whom I have no love far less affiliation) were labelled red Tories for agreeing with the Conservatives on a non political issue... Whilst the SNP sided with the Conservatives locally on e tax issue, and nationally on EU membership.

Tartan Tories?

Seem to have more in common nowadays.

That's what happens when you join the establishment.

[Bud the Baker]

Are politicions not elected on the will of the majority?

Not necessarily, in the recent GE the Conservatives got a majority of seats in Parliament with 36.9% of the votes cast.

Btw - I'm not disputing the Conservatives right to form a government under our current constitution just pointing out they didn't get a majority of the votes cast.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Bud the Baker

[Reynard]

Because you have two different situations England makes up over 80% of the UK's population thus it can never be a partnership of equals. The EU is a conglomerate of 28 nations and while power within the organization will vary according to a country's size and economic strength you will never have the same degree of domination by a single nation.

We don't have a federal UK and to the best of my knowledge it's not on the political agenda - Scotland has a parliament, Wales & NI have assemblies all three have different degrees of autonomy. London has a mayoral system with more powers than the rest of English local government, I'm not exactly sure what is envisaged for the other English cities which are going to be devolved mayoral powers but the whole situation is a mess - and one that we're better out of .

The EU is a federal system with defined areas of responsibility for the EU parliament and the individual nations. As far as I can see any special status the UK has within the EU is largely cosmetic and will continue to be so.

Were you watching this week when the second biggest contributor to the EU budget and the second biggest economy in it and the fifth biggest economy on the planet went begging to be allowed to set its own benefit rules? And failed?

Yet you think Scotland will be somehow protected from total absorption? Edinburgh is said to be the Athens of the North. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what it would become if we handed sovereignty away to unelected commissioners.

IF the UK votes out. Scotland is therefore out too. And it meets no criteria to enter again. No currency of its own. No central bank of its own and a massive deficit. The biggest in Europe. I'd actually LOVE to see Sturgeon demanding a referendum on the basis of leaving the UK and to attempt to join the EU. The utter horsing she would take from the Scottish electorate would be epic. Its never going to happen anyway no matter what we do in this referendum in June.

[Reynard]

Not necessarily, in the recent GE the Conservatives got a majority of seats in Parliament with 36.9% of the votes cast.

Btw - I'm not disputing the Conservatives right to form a government under our current constitution just pointing out they didn't get a majority of the votes cast.

Thats right. its technically possible to form a government and have less votes than the next biggest party as its constituency based and not percentage based. You need to win constituencies to return MPs.

The SNP called a referendum based on 22% of the Scottish electorate endorsing them in 2011.

AS far as getting punters to turn up and vote, the general election is always the one that does best. Then HR, then probably local councils or EU stuff.

[salmonbuddie]

Or indy referenda.

[oaksoft]

Interesting that Labour (of whom I have no love far less affiliation) were labelled red Tories for agreeing with the Conservatives on a non political issue... Whilst the SNP sided with the Conservatives locally on e tax issue, and nationally on EU membership.

Tartan Tories?

Seem to have more in common nowadays.

That is some pretty shite banter right there.

Tartan Tories?

Is a 40 year old joke the best you can do?

[oaksoft]

So going full circle...

Better in...

Better out

Put more in than we get but that is ok...

Put more in than we get out but that is bad.

We are happy to be told what to do...

We want to make our own decisions.

That is changed in what way exactly?

Do you not understand the difference between paying a amembership fee and giving all your money to someone else in exchange for pocket money or are you ignoring it in order to wind people up?

[Bud the Baker]

Were you watching this week when the second biggest contributor to the EU budget and the second biggest economy in it and the fifth biggest economy on the planet went begging to be allowed to set its own benefit rules? And failed?

Yet you think Scotland will be somehow protected from total absorption? Edinburgh is said to be the Athens of the North. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what it would become if we handed sovereignty away to unelected commissioners.

IF the UK votes out. Scotland is therefore out too. And it meets no criteria to enter again. No currency of its own. No central bank of its own and a massive deficit. The biggest in Europe. I'd actually LOVE to see Sturgeon demanding a referendum on the basis of leaving the UK and to attempt to join the EU. The utter horsing she would take from the Scottish electorate would be epic. Its never going to happen anyway no matter what we do in this referendum in June.

You may very well be right on certain issues - no system is ever perfect and whatever happens Scotland will continue to be a small country bobbing in the wake of whatever direction our larger neighbours decide to go in. You just have to make decisions based on what you think is right and what you hope to achieve.

Thats right. its technically possible to form a government and have less votes than the next biggest party as its constituency based and not percentage based. You need to win constituencies to return MPs.

The SNP called a referendum based on 22% of the Scottish electorate endorsing them in 2011.

AS far as getting punters to turn up and vote, the general election is always the one that does best. Then HR, then probably local councils or EU stuff.

The SNP got 45.4% of the vote in 2011. (44% of the list vote)

Anyway the referendum Act was endorsed by all Scottish political parties represented at Holyrood so that'd be 100% of the 2011 electorate minus whatever the fringe parties like the BNP, UKIP & Loonies got.

Edit - 98% of the constituency vote (92% of the list vote)

Edited February 21, 2016 by Bud the Baker

[salmonbuddie]

Careful, BtB, he said electorate so he means the percentage of everyone registered to vote, not those who did vote.

He'll be back calling you thick in a mo, watch this space.

Edited February 21, 2016 by salmonbuddie

[Bud the Baker]

He'll be back calling you thick in a mo, watch this space.

He wouldn't be the first.................

[BuddieinEK]

That is some pretty shite banter right there.

Tartan Tories?

Is a 40 year old joke the best you can do?

Obviously enough to touch a nerve!

[salmonbuddie]

It wasn't true then, and isn't now. How many modern day SNP leaders have ever expressed admiration for Thatcher? Don't you think Blair doing so, and inviting her to Downing St., contributed to the 'Red Tories' label?

Edited February 21, 2016 by salmonbuddie

[Guest TPAFKATS]

It wasn't true then, and isn't now. How many modern day SNP leaders have ever expressed admiration for Thatcher? Don't you think Blair doing so, and inviting her to Downing St., contributed to the 'Red Tories' label?

Was it a painting or a sculpture of thatcher that pm brown ok'd?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

That's what happens when you join the establishment.

Was it yourself who tried to get elected as a candidate for the Conservative Party?

[Stuart Dickson]

It wasn't true then, and isn't now. How many modern day SNP leaders have ever expressed admiration for Thatcher? Don't you think Blair doing so, and inviting her to Downing St., contributed to the 'Red Tories' label?

Ooft setting up the goals now.

It's policies that matter, not what politician you kiss up to. You'd have known that if you weren't a buckled Natsi.

[smcc]

Ooft setting up the goals now.

It's policies that matter, not what politician you kiss up to. You'd have known that if you weren't a buckled Natsi.

The policy of the SNP is to make Scotland an independent country. Thereafter, if it happens, its members/adherents will be free to follow their own inclinations. Members/adherents of other political parties(like yourself) seem unable to get their heads round this.

[Stuart Dickson]

The policy of the SNP is to make Scotland an independent country. Thereafter, if it happens, its members/adherents will be free to follow their own inclinations. Members/adherents of other political parties(like yourself) seem unable to get their heads round this.

Not according to their 2016 Holyrood Election manifesto. According to that they aren't campaigning for Home Rule.

[BuddieinEK]

Not according to their 2016 Holyrood Election manifesto. According to that they aren't campaigning for Home Rule.

Touché.

[salmonbuddie]

Ooft setting up the goals now.

It's policies that matter, not what politician you kiss up to. You'd have known that if you weren't a buckled Natsi.

I do know that. And so do the people of Scotland who kept rejecting Thatcher and her subsequent acolytes. And then saw the light and realised that indy, not 'Labour', was the way forward.

[BuddieinEK]

I do know that. And so do the people of Scotland who kept rejecting Thatcher and her subsequent acolytes. And then saw the light and realised that indy, not 'Labour', was the way forward.

AKA the minority!

;)