Should We Stay Or Should We Go

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

No, it most certainly does not boil down to just that, it's a very shallow, surface level argument. It is a valid point, but only one of dozens of genuinely valid issues that directly and fundamentally affect people relating to EU membership.

I'm not sure what way to vote so ask the question what does the EU do directly for me , honestly don't know.

Travel a lot but still have to stand in a cue to have the passport checked that would happen in or out the EU

Cameron is right in one thing benefits especially child benefit being sent back out the country complete utter madness.

Security , we are part of NATO that's big enough security.

Terrorists don't believe anyone who says communication , shared intelligence will stop if we leave the EU .

We pay 55 million everyday to be part of the EU that is mind boggling numbers - what is the return on 55 million everyday as that kind of money being spent in the UK could create many jobs in building projects. Who knows we might even get one of these bullet trains running up and down the country.

The biggest worry is eventually we will be centralised from mainland Europe. London is out of touch with Scotland ( my own opinion )

It will be a lot worse from central Europe.

Have been lucky enough to see and work with former communist countries workers. These countries are needing huge infrastructure projects to bring them up to some sort of acceptable level. Where is the money going to come from to do this. Wages in these countries Romania and Bulgaria in particular average 500 Euros a month while many are on 250 Euros a month. Is it any wonder these people want to come and get benefits more than they can make in their own country.

After all that not sure still how I will vote need more info.

[saintnextlifetime]

We have been in the EU for 40 odd years and it hasn't stopped us feeling British / Scottish. Are you seriously saying you feel European because we are a member of the EU . Germans are still German, French are still French. What makes us as a nation so insecure that you think otherwise.

I'd love to know on a personal day-to-day basis what the EU is heaping upon you that's so insidious.

Oh my. .

Just in case you haven't noticed , you have not been in the EU for forty years .

In 1951 the ECSC starts.

In 1957 the treaty of Rome is signed to create the EEC .

In 1963 De Gaul signs a treaty with Adenour to bury the hatchet between France and Germany . Fortunately for us , De Gaul still hated the British and so kept us out of EEC.

Edward Heath signed us up to the EEC in 1973 .At the time Edward Heath said it would bring prosperity to this country . What is certain is that it brought him prosperity to him, as he was paid for his signature, quite handsomely.

In 1975 Harold Wilson organises a referendum to ratify UK membership of the EEC, essentially a trading club . The UK voted by 67% to remain in the EEC. In Scotland it was lower at 58% , lower still in this area at 54% and in some areas (like the Western Isles, those tuechtars knew) it 56% No.

After 1975 there was a gradual dwindling of power from Westminster to Europe. Which meant in the 9ts they were confident enough to rename their "club" EC , or European Community ( even they knew it wasn't economic anymore). Then by the turn of the century , they felt more confident and started calling it the EU . Edward Heath was asked before he died if he knew a Federal Europe was the plan all along and he admitted that he did.

Now it is just called Europe.

Now that wasn't insidious about that ? I didn't vote for what we now have and I'll bet my season ticket that you didn't either.

We now reach a point whereby it is 10 to Midnight . Do we let the Europeans do what they have been trying to do for centuries and dominate us?

Simply put , Europe does not enjoy all the freedoms we have in our constitution and law. Their attempts at democracy are amateurish at best and down right fascism at worst. They still have laws put in place by a little dictator we fought against over 200yrs ago. .

Europe has already destroyed the economies of several countries including Greece . If we say yes to Europe in June the Euro and further integration will be inevitable , no matter what Cameron says he has gained from them . He got us nothing short of window dressing. .

[oaksoft]

Oh my. .

Just in case you haven't noticed , you have not been in the EU for forty years .

In 1951 the ECSC starts.

In 1957 the treaty of Rome is signed to create the EEC .

In 1963 De Gaul signs a treaty with Adenour to bury the hatchet between France and Germany . Fortunately for us , De Gaul still hated the British and so kept us out of EEC.

Edward Heath signed us up to the EEC in 1973 .At the time Edward Heath said it would bring prosperity to this country . What is certain is that it brought him prosperity to him, as he was paid for his signature, quite handsomely.

In 1975 Harold Wilson organises a referendum to ratify UK membership of the EEC, essentially a trading club . The UK voted by 67% to remain in the EEC. In Scotland it was lower at 58% , lower still in this area at 54% and in some areas (like the Western Isles, those tuechtars knew) it 56% No.

After 1975 there was a gradual dwindling of power from Westminster to Europe. Which meant in the 9ts they were confident enough to rename their "club" EC , or European Community ( even they knew it wasn't economic anymore). Then by the turn of the century , they felt more confident and started calling it the EU . Edward Heath was asked before he died if he knew a Federal Europe was the plan all along and he admitted that he did.

Now it is just called Europe.

Now that wasn't insidious about that ? I didn't vote for what we now have and I'll bet my season ticket that you didn't either.

We now reach a point whereby it is 10 to Midnight . Do we let the Europeans do what they have been trying to do for centuries and dominate us?

Simply put , Europe does not enjoy all the freedoms we have in our constitution and law. Their attempts at democracy are amateurish at best and down right fascism at worst. They still have laws put in place by a little dictator we fought against over 200yrs ago. .

Europe has already destroyed the economies of several countries including Greece . If we say yes to Europe in June the Euro and further integration will be inevitable , no matter what Cameron says he has gained from them . He got us nothing short of window dressing. .

I think that given the strength of your language here you could at least tell us what your problem is.

Bringing up the wars is a very poor argument indeed. In fact it's an absolutely dreadful argument.

Since the EU began, we've experienced the longest peace amongst the member countries for many many years - possibly ever.

That is the best present we could give to those who fought the major wars - that fact that we've learned our lesson.

Edited February 23, 2016 by oaksoft

[saintnextlifetime]

I think that given the strength of your language here you could at least tell us what your problem is.

Bringing up the wars is a very poor argument indeed. In fact it's an absolutely dreadful argument.

Since the EU began, we've experienced the longest peace amongst the member countries for many many years - possibly ever.

That is the best present we could give to those who fought the major wars - that fact that we've learned our lesson.

I think you'll find the threat of NATO and the Allies kept the peace rather than the insidious , non-democratic , power hungry EEC, EC, EU, Federal Europe did. .boots on the ground and all that. .

[Ayrshire Saints]

Oh my. .

Just in case you haven't noticed , you have not been in the EU for forty years .

In 1951 the ECSC starts.

In 1957 the treaty of Rome is signed to create the EEC .

In 1963 De Gaul signs a treaty with Adenour to bury the hatchet between France and Germany . Fortunately for us , De Gaul still hated the British and so kept us out of EEC.

Edward Heath signed us up to the EEC in 1973 .At the time Edward Heath said it would bring prosperity to this country . What is certain is that it brought him prosperity to him, as he was paid for his signature, quite handsomely.

In 1975 Harold Wilson organises a referendum to ratify UK membership of the EEC, essentially a trading club . The UK voted by 67% to remain in the EEC. In Scotland it was lower at 58% , lower still in this area at 54% and in some areas (like the Western Isles, those tuechtars knew) it 56% No.

After 1975 there was a gradual dwindling of power from Westminster to Europe. Which meant in the 9ts they were confident enough to rename their "club" EC , or European Community ( even they knew it wasn't economic anymore). Then by the turn of the century , they felt more confident and started calling it the EU . Edward Heath was asked before he died if he knew a Federal Europe was the plan all along and he admitted that he did.

Now it is just called Europe.

Now that wasn't insidious about that ? I didn't vote for what we now have and I'll bet my season ticket that you didn't either.

We now reach a point whereby it is 10 to Midnight . Do we let the Europeans do what they have been trying to do for centuries and dominate us?

Simply put , Europe does not enjoy all the freedoms we have in our constitution and law. Their attempts at democracy are amateurish at best and down right fascism at worst. They still have laws put in place by a little dictator we fought against over 200yrs ago. .

Europe has already destroyed the economies of several countries including Greece . If we say yes to Europe in June the Euro and further integration will be inevitable , no matter what Cameron says he has gained from them . He got us nothing short of window dressing. .

EEC EC EU - all pretty much the same thing to the average man on the street. Do you honestly think we will join the Euro ?

"Europe does not enjoy all the freedoms we have in our constitution and law" - please explain - who in the EU is being denied freedoms we currently have and if we currently have them why will that change with diluted links to the EU.

I'm not having a go here I just have not seen such a strong anti EU sentiment from anyone else in Scotland. I've seen it online and on TV from your UKIP / Daily Mail and Express types but usually that is driven by purse racism. It's an extreme view to hold on an organisation whch doesn't really have a massive effect on my day-to-day business.

[saintnextlifetime]

EEC EC EU - all pretty much the same thing to the average man on the street. Do you honestly think we will join the Euro ?

"Europe does not enjoy all the freedoms we have in our constitution and law" - please explain - who in the EU is being denied freedoms we currently have and if we currently have them why will that change with diluted links to the EU.

I'm not having a go here I just have not seen such a strong anti EU sentiment from anyone else in Scotland. I've seen it online and on TV from your UKIP / Daily Mail and Express types but usually that is driven by purse racism. It's an extreme view to hold on an organisation whch doesn't really have a massive effect on my day-to-day business.

I reckon, from what I can see , is that either you are still quite young and/or a wee bit naive . .and therefore have been/are still unable to see the insidious nature of the Beast. .

[Stuart Dickson]

EEC EC EU - all pretty much the same thing to the average man on the street. Do you honestly think we will join the Euro ?

"Europe does not enjoy all the freedoms we have in our constitution and law" - please explain - who in the EU is being denied freedoms we currently have and if we currently have them why will that change with diluted links to the EU.

I'm not having a go here I just have not seen such a strong anti EU sentiment from anyone else in Scotland. I've seen it online and on TV from your UKIP / Daily Mail and Express types but usually that is driven by purse racism. It's an extreme view to hold on an organisation whch doesn't really have a massive effect on my day-to-day business.

Well funnily enough I've seen such anti-English sentiment on here and right throughout Scotland, typically from Natsi's living amongst us. Challenge them on whether they are being racist or not and they'll absolutely deny it. Yet here you're acting the complete hypocrite in claiming that anyone who has a strong view wishing to leave the EU must be driven by pure racism. That's utter bullshit.

I am likely to vote to stay in the EU however my reasons for this are all purely political. I believe that our military is now inextricably linked to our European partners and I believe that it is better for UK business that we are able to negotiate trade agreements with world powers like the USA, Russia and China as an important player within a large block of countries. I can also see arguments for the other side, not least that the EU is undemocratic, that the Euro is utterly f**ked as a currency, and that we don't want to be put on the hook for funding the development of some really economically backward states that have brought into the Eurozone despite not meeting the stated criteria. The EU in it's thirst for growth was far too lenient on the likes of Romania, Bulgaria and on Greece.You ask who in the EU doesn't have the freedoms that exist in the UK? Ask the migrants fleeing from Syria why they aren't hanging about there and you'll get your answer.

And like Jim Sillars I cannot for the life of me get my head around why the SNP want to campaign to remain in the EU and why they would threaten a UK referendum if the UK votes to exit when the EU has already made it clear to the SNP that they would not admit an independent Scotland into the EU.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Stuart Dickson

[salmonbuddie]

Well funnily enough I've seen such anti-English sentiment on here and right throughout Scotland, typically from Natsi's living amongst us. Challenge them on whether they are being racist or not and they'll absolutely deny it. Yet here you're acting the complete hypocrite in claiming that anyone who has a strong view wishing to leave the EU must be driven by pure racism. That's utter bullshit.

Utter bollocks, that's not even close to what was said but, once again, you think you see an opportunity to go off on one of your 'all nationalists are anti-English' rants.

Learn to read. More importantly, learn to comprehend what's been written.

[Ayrshire Saints]

Well funnily enough I've seen such anti-English sentiment on here and right throughout Scotland, typically from Natsi's living amongst us. Challenge them on whether they are being racist or not and they'll absolutely deny it. Yet here you're acting the complete hypocrite in claiming that anyone who has a strong view wishing to leave the EU must be driven by pure racism. That's utter bullshit.

I am likely to vote to stay in the EU however my reasons for this are all purely political. I believe that our military is now inextricably linked to our European partners and I believe that it is better for UK business that we are able to negotiate trade agreements with world powers like the USA, Russia and China as an important player within a large block of countries. I can also see arguments for the other side, not least that the EU is undemocratic, that the Euro is utterly f**ked as a currency, and that we don't want to be put on the hook for funding the development of some really economically backward states that have brought into the Eurozone despite not meeting the stated criteria. The EU in it's thirst for growth was far too lenient on the likes of Romania, Bulgaria and on Greece.You ask who in the EU doesn't have the freedoms that exist in the UK? Ask the migrants fleeing from Syria why they aren't hanging about there and you'll get your answer.

And like Jim Sillars I cannot for the life of me get my head around why the SNP want to campaign to remain in the EU and why they would threaten a UK referendum if the UK votes to exit when the EU has already made it clear to the SNP that they would not admit an independent Scotland into the EU.

Y A W N same old, same old record stuck on every thread. Tedious in the extreme.

BTW read my post again re your racism claims. As usual a total distortion of what was said for your endless petty agenda. Utterly tragic stuff. Next you will be quoting the likes of Jim Sillars and the Daily Record in your scramble for relevance......oh wait a minute ????

Edited February 23, 2016 by Ayrshire Saints

[Stuart Dickson]

Y A W N same old, same old record stuck on every thread. Tedious in the extreme.

BTW read my post again re your racism claims. As usual a total distortion of what was said for your endless petty agenda. Utterly tragic stuff. Next you will be quoting the likes of Jim Sillars and the Daily Record in your scramble for relevance......oh wait a minute

I've read it many times over. You say quite clearly you haven't seen anti Europe sentiment in Scotland from anyone else (other than saintsnextlifetime apparently). That you've seen it on TV from UKIP and the Daily Mail with a racist motive. And then you accuse saintsnextlifetime of holding an extreme view.

It's quite clear what you were implying and I'm simply pointing out that it's perfectly fine to hold strong anti-EU views without being in the slightest bit racist. Ofcourse you are just following the Natsi way of mudslinging - it's a poor practice and I wish we could drive that out of political argument. This is too serious an issue for it to be derided by the likes of you claiming that anyone who doesn't want to be ruled from Strasbourg or Brussels is a racist.

[salmonbuddie]

Ffs, read it again, you troll. He doesn't say that being anti-EU makes someone racist, he says that the anti-EU comment he's seen and heard has been racist. Too hard for your limited head to comprehend? *

* The question mark is a deliberate mistake

ETA

'Mudslinging' - from the troll who accuses every indy supporter of being an anti-English racist. You couldn't make it up.

Edited February 23, 2016 by salmonbuddie

[Stuart Dickson]

As you've misquoted Zurich Allan before he may not reply.

But if there was someone who I'd trust for an answer to the following question it would be him.

ZA, Has the EU said at anytime that they would not admit an Independent Scotland under any circumstances?

I'm directly quoting Jim Sillars

[Ayrshire Saints]

Sillars, Sillars nurse quick he's at it again. Lets start a Dickson Sillars-o-meter. He must be up to double figures in each of the threads he's twisting round to his petty agenda.

[Drew]

Just to be clear, Stuart.

You do understand that nationality and race are distinct things?

[Stuart Dickson]

Just to be clear, Stuart.

You do understand that nationality and race are distinct things?

Apparently not in UK law. Jeremy Clarkson was sued for racial abuse for calling his former producer a "lazy Irish c**t". There's also numerous instances of Scots pursuing "pursuing racial discrimination" action on the grounds of national stereotyping.

That said it was Ayrshire Saint who brought racism into the thread with his allegations of what drives extreme views on the EU. I certainly don't presume that he was attempting to claim that the Daily Mail has been carrying an anti EU message to stop Afro Caribbeans from coming to the UK

[salmonbuddie]

That said it was Ayrshire Saint who brought racism into the thread with his allegations of what drives extreme views on the EU. I certainly don't presume that he was attempting to claim that the Daily Mail has been carrying an anti EU message to stop Afro Caribbeans from coming to the UK

No, it would be you claiming that all independence supporters are anti-English racists during one of your earlier trolls posts that brought race into it.

[Stuart Dickson]

No, it would be you claiming that all independence supporters are anti-English racists during one of your earlier trolls posts that brought race into it.

I had made 14 posts on this thread before Ayrshire Saint accused those who are strongly against the EU of being racist. Go on, show me which one of them you are referring to? Here's a clue.....I didn't bring race into it.

[salmonbuddie]

He didn't say that at all, I've already demonstrated that to you, and to everyone else reading this. Constant repetition of a falsehood on your part doesn't make it true. Go on, prove me wrong.

No? Didn't think so...

Edited February 24, 2016 by salmonbuddie

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I certainly don't presume that he was attempting to claim that the Daily Mail has been carrying an anti EU message to stop Afro Caribbeans from coming to the UK

Considering you were quoting Venezuela earlier in the thread, I assume the roll eyes emoji was ironic?

[Ayrshire Saints]

I've put him on ignore again.

I had (stupidly) un-ignored him after the Scottish referendum campaign but clearly I was wrong to do that as it's impossible to conduct any sort of conversation with someone who persistently distorts everyone's words and brings every single thread on this part of the forum around to his own never ending petty agenda. He talks about the SNP being a single agenda party but he is an even bigger single agenda person. You don't like the SNP - we get it but it's ruining your life Mr Dickson. You seem compelled to bring every single thread on this forum back round to that agenda. They really are totally and utterly under your skin. How you have let one thing affect you so much I don't know but it's clearly all consuming on your part.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Ayrshire Saints

[Stuart Dickson]

Considering you were quoting Venezuela earlier in the thread, I assume the roll eyes emoji was ironic?

Venezuela? That great bastion of Afro Caribbeans You really are that stupid

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Venezuela? That great bastion of Afro Caribbeans You really are that stupid

Hahaha

You are f**king nuts!

[oaksoft]

Apparently not in UK law. Jeremy Clarkson was sued for racial abuse for calling his former producer a "lazy Irish c**t". There's also numerous instances of Scots pursuing "pursuing racial discrimination" action on the grounds of national stereotyping.

What the hell are you talking about?

It was settled out of court FFS.

UK Law didn't get a chance to have a say.

[saintnextlifetime]

[oaksoft]

I would prefer to see an unbiased report on stuff like this.

Oh and a report which avoids dumbed down phrases and headlines too.